EPISODE ONE
Nico
(0:24) Hello, welcome. Home is a Human Right is produced by a collective of volunteers within Mutual Aid Housing Strategies, an affiliate of Mutual Aid NYC with the guidance and support of citywide leaders of the movement for housing justice. For the visually impaired joining us, I'm wearing a Navy dress sitting in front of my computer on occupied land. There's a window with closed blank blinds behind me.
(0:49) We are convening in the midst of mass death — some 500,000 people have died from COVID across the United States. We are one month into a new administration that continues a legacy of organized abandonment of migrant peoples, the working poor, people in prisons and detention centers, teachers, nurses, families, and those living without homes. The experience of not having a home has become the norm for nearly 100,000 New Yorkers and as many as 1.2 million are currently on the brink of eviction. The median home price in Manhattan and much of Brooklyn is more than $1 million. The rate of homelessness in the city today is at least double what it was a decade ago, a rate we have not seen since the Great Depression.
(1:36) 20% of the city's hotels operate as homeless shelters and the city spends upwards of $3.2 billion per year and the homelessness problem without solving it. One baby in every 100 who was born in New York City Hospital is brought home to a shelter, and in family shelters among head of households, 93% self-identify as black or brown. Right now, over 200,000 eviction cases are pending in New York City courts.
(2:08) Our inaugural episode kicks off with two brilliant and bright minds that I admire so much. Marcus Moore is a satirist, artist, and activist also known as the Homeless Poet. He's an organizer with Pictures of the Homeless, a homeless-founded and homeless-led grassroots organization founded in 1996, to mobilize homeless people to impact policies and systems that affect their lives. Picture the Homeless organizes for social justice around issues like housing, police violence, and the shelter industrial complex, and advocates for diverting funds from the New York City Department and Homeless Services, out of the shelter system and into community land trust, such as the East Harlem El Barrio Community Land Trust and Mutual Housing Association, which the organization helped to found.
(2:55) We're also joined by Sabaah Folayan, who is a writer, director, and producer who uses visual media to bring hopeful yet unflinching perspective to the urgent questions of our time. A truth-teller who centers love and compassion in pushing for radical change, Sabaah made her directorial debut at the 2017 Sundance Film Festival with the feature-length documentary “Whose Streets.” Nominated for a Peabody, Gotham, and Critics Choice Award, the film chronicles the experience of activists living in Ferguson, Missouri, when Michael Brown Jr. was killed.
Hi, you two. Welcome.
Sabaah
(3:29) Hello.
Marcus
(3:35) Good evening, everybody.
Nico
(3:35) Hi. Yeah, so let's dive right in. Sabaah, your film takes place in 2014. And for those who haven't seen it, can you give a quick explainer? I just did, but maybe a little bit more explanation of what was happening in your film?
Sabaah
(4:03) Yeah, definitely. Peace, everybody. I'm on occupied Tequesta territory, which is also known as Miami, Florida. “Whose Streets” is about the uprising that took place when Mike Brown Jr. was killed. And so, they killed this young man, they left his body in the streets for four and a half hours. And this was a month before I was at a year-long contract at a reentry organization, working with people who were in and out of jails and prisons trying to, you know, help bridge them into, quote unquote, society. And so, it was just this moment of, I think everybody was being called to the table to question well, we had the Civil Rights Movement, we have a Black president, you know, at the time it was Obama, but yet we still have this problem, what is going on? And so, I felt called to be a part of that moment as a Black person. It felt exciting, it felt enlivening and I went there.
(5:01) And what I found was that people were really, Mike Brown being killed and being left in the street — you know, lynched, really — was the last straw, and the other straws were really things as simple as people getting harassed for parking tickets, because Ferguson is 96 different municipalities. So, you could be driving to work and drive through three different municipalities and get three tickets for the same problem, which if you can afford it, now, that's warrants, now you lose your job, all of these compounding consequences. So, there was this seething rage because people were under so much pressure from the kind of like, micro-policing and ticketing and warranting — not even like, you know, not even talking violent crime or anything like that, just the pressure of policing. And this last incident was just what I think tipped it over the edge for people locally. And then of course, there were the global ripple effects.
Nico
(5:55) There's a really prominent story that stuck out to me, it’s a moment in a car between a conversation between two people. It's the story of Kiana who had been locked up for 14 days after she was unable to pay traffic fines, traffic tickets, and as a result of being locked up, she lost her job. And then she became homeless for two and a half years. I want us to kind of hold that. And Marcus, what was going on around you in 2014 around the time of the uprising?
Marcus
(6:34) Wow. So, you had a lot going on in New York City in 2014. You had a lot of police harassment, when it came to houseless people, undomiciled people, or homeless people. You know, as far as as New York is concerned, homeless people ain't really have no rights, you know. And so, you have homeless people, basically just, you know, just trying to exist in today's society, especially here in New York City, you know. And so, we had a lot of issues going on around.
I'm not too sure was that around the time with, um, I can't think right now.
Sabaah
(7:32) It was like Eric Garner was going, there were up and downs, like the trial was ongoing.
Marcus
(7:39) Yeah, yeah, I was, I was trying to bring that up. So, you know, you take me back into, you know, the past and whatnot, and I was trying to like, cause, you know, you had Ramarley Graham. And then I know that Eric Garner was the new thing on the scene. And so, thank you for that, Sabaah. I can remember doing a sleep out. I remember doing a sleep out. No, no, I was in Staten Island protesting. And I was, um, I was doing, I was doing some, actually some journalism in Staten Island and they was just talking about how he was just smoking a cigarette, or I don't even think he was smoking a cigarette, he was selling cigarettes and the cops came and did what they did. And that whole thing just erupted. It was just like protest after protest in New York City. It was really intense in the Tri-State area.
Nico
(8:43) Yeah, the particular story of Kiana sticks out in terms of, of some of the things that are addressed in the film — and as well as, I've heard, Marcus, you talk about before — is
how profitable it is for the state to keep people in shelter systems and to keep people
stuck in these just really cruel systems. I believe that the shelter beds cost around, the bill for it is around — correct me if I'm wrong, Marcus — $3,500 at a minimum for a single adult, even in congregate housing. And the payout for families is around $5,000 to $7,000. And there's all sorts of restrictions on what can be had in the room. I was wondering if you could elaborate for us and kind of give us an overview of the kind of shelters that are supposed to offer something to people who are living without housing but seem to kind of keep people in them.
Marcus
(10:05) So you have these spaces that the city — I want to speak here on the metropolitan area, you know, New York — and so basically, the city is warehousing people in these small cubicles, Right. And, you know, right now the biggest thing — and it's been going on way before the pandemic — is the hotel rooms. And so, you have the Department of DHS pretty much walk folks to their room, and they can’t have certain stuff in the room, as a matter of fact, they can't even lock the door. You know, so I'm saying the caseworkers, security guards, can just walk into the door for the room and tell you, you got to go downstairs because your caseworker want to see you. And so, you know, you're never really at home, you're not made to feel like you're at home. You’re in a faculty that’s basically telling you what the rules are in they house. And so it's really a stressful situation for families, especially with kids.
[Technical difficulties, Marcus cuts out]
(11:38) Once they understand how much they're being housed for, that's when it's sinking to your consciousness that you’re housing me for all this money? You’re housing me for almost $7,000, me and my partner, and you can give me a house and I got a voucher that's not even working for me? You don't want to pay for me to move out and move on with my future and my children and so forth. So it's really a dire situation. It's a situation where hope and prosperity is being robbed, is being sucked out of the people, the people feel like there's no need to fight, the people are really upset that they've been in these situations and local government has had them like this. So, I'll just stop right there.
Sabaah
(12:59) Yeah, yeah, I think that's on point, like in Ferguson, they found out that — and this isn't direct to homelessness — but they found that this finds petty fines and tickets, were making up to 30% of the budgets of these various municipalities. So, they're really shaking down the people. It's really this kind of class warfare that you see. And I think it spills over to homelessness as well, where it's like, anytime they can hold the essentials up for ransom, they do. And it is really discouraging for the people, because these are the places you're supposed to go when you have nowhere to turn to and when you're being taken advantage of in that time and place, you know, it's spiritually wrong, you know what I mean? Even though it can be so bureaucratic when you're having the experience, like it's one of the most spiritually wrong, I think, things that we do as a society.
Marcus
(13:52) So, in New York, New York City governments likes to blame the victim. They like to blame the victim and blame the people who's already been a victim of those who we elect to help us to better ourselves and community, they really condemn them for what? For what gentrification did, for what displacement did, and so it's everybody's fault. And when it comes to blaming, it seems like our local officials, and the news media, they all swarm in and say, see what they did? They doing this, they doing that. That's why they can get ahead, but in New York we call that scapegoating we call it racism. We call it institutional racism. Right? It's all the -isms.
Nico
(15:00) Yeah, Sabaah, so in your film there are some thing that prominently stood out was two moments. There was the statement given by the woman who tried to run through the crowd that Britney was in. And in the statement that this woman gave to the police, this is a quote that “Brittany was screaming, but seemed more like tribal chanting semi-words.” And then in another moment in the film, there is footage of the interview that Darren Wilson gave with I believe George Stephanopoulos, which Darren Wilson being the cop who murdered
Michael Brown, he describes the look in Michael Brown’s eyes as being, quote demonic.
(16:02) We can get a sense from looking at these two things, that there is something very peculiar going on in the sort of white imaginary of who Black people are. And I'm wondering if we could expand more on what, Marcus, you're talking about with structural racism, and how it moves and if you can expand on how homeless people are treated in this fantasy as being almost a threat, but also as being completely invisible?
Sabaah
(16:51) Yeah, like, I think that's a really interesting connection that you made between those two points. Because if I understand correctly, you know, Marcus is talking about the spin that they put on it when they go out and try to explain these dynamics, they say, it’s these people, they're not educated enough, they don't work hard enough, they this they that they violent, everything under the sun, they'll drag out.
(17:15) Dan Wilson was 6’2”, Michael Brown was 6’3”, Dan Wilson was 250 Michael Brown was 248, so there was no Incredible Hulk versus, you know, tiny man. And so, it's lies, you know what I mean? And it's projection of internal rage, guilt, shame, and anger. And whenever you dehumanize people, whenever you can talk about the homeless, or you can talk about this population — whenever you can lose sight of the fact that every single person is somebody’s kid, somebody’s mom, somebody’s brother, somebody something, that everybody has dignity to themselves, even if it's living on their own terms, even if that means I want to sleep outside, because this is my terms. And this is how I choose to live.
(18:06) Because, you know, the reality is, we talk about freedom so much in this country, but anybody that deviates from a certain look, from a certain wealth, and from a certain mindset, we put them in a different category of species, so that only people who think like one way, look like one way, and act like one way, are free. We are free to be one way. And so, I think that, you know, we shouldn't get too caught up in the wild imagination, because they know as well as we do that that's bullshit. Everybody who's spewing that intellectual dishonesty, I think, with the exception of some few extreme religious fanatics that may be caught up in some other mental health thing, those politicians and those people, those offices, they know exactly what they're saying and what they're doing. And because I think, I hate when I hear, you know, because of the color of my skin, and if it was somebody homeless, I would hate for them to think it's because they're homeless. No, like, I think it's pure intellectual dishonesty. I think that they know and I think that it's, I don't know, I think that sometimes our conversations are too geared around redeeming the white psyche and healing this kind of like white psychosis that we see, when in reality, what we need to be healing is exactly what my brother Marcus was talking about, which is that feeling of helplessness, and that lack of container for the rage that comes when you recognize that something has been unjust, but you don't have the tools to actually remedy that.
Marcus
(19:47) And so, I just want to say that when it comes to homeless people in the public, people are constantly seeing homeless people, but they not seeing them. See, when undomiciled people in the public, they remind the general population of what they can be like next week. And so, they try to run away from that, they don't see it. People who are living on the street is reminding them, they become a threat to they reality. Because they understand that it's hard, and it's a struggle, but they have in they consciousness that, I can't see you, you did something wrong in your life. That's why you are like that. And so that's just not me. But in reality, a lot of people are very close to trading places with them. A lot of people, they know that they not too far from that. And when homeless folks are in the public, they just remind them, you know what it is to walk past somebody and see that person in a box — that can be them next week, next month, next year. And so, they become a threat to the realities.
Nico
(21:32) And there's something so, just what you're saying about how close people are to being in the same position, especially within the context of COVID, being in the position of losing your home, not having a house. I wonder if we can talk about the organized abandonment, by politicians, by this past presidency, and we're just like a month into the new presidency. And something quite interesting comes up Sabaah in your film, that shows the then President Obama speaking publicly and saying that he doesn't want to put his thumb on the scale.
(22:38) How do we see the interlocking issues of racism that intermingles with people who are living on the street or who don't have housing or who are living in shelters or in congregate housing, and the issue of like, we have a brand-new presidency. And a lot of people are full of hope for this presidency to kind of tackle the issues and we're no longer under like, fascist role, apparently. I wonder if we can explore some of the ideas of who is going to work through and tackle the issues facing homeless people. Marcus, I'm wondering if you have ideas of mutual aid versus some of the policy work that you do, are they counter to each other? Or can they work together, mutual aid and working through policy?
Marcus
(23:48) No doubt, that's the new wave, now. We know about the coalition building. Every group, over the years, you know, had its purposes, the coalition was to kind of like get the community rattled up, let the city council know that this is not right. This is not right.
(24:10) But now that's good, that's okay. But now we are in this time and era right now with New York City now being on trial, because the whole world is watching because we are the center of attention. And so now we’re driving home. So, New York City government, they had plenty of time to house people, especially Black and brown people. They had plenty of time to do this. But instead, they put it off. There's no ton of money in the fiscal budget. It's not enough, no next time, next year, you know, the city council's going to timeout. But what they don't understand is that city agencies have failed the people. Not just in the five boroughs but in the state. Now you've got the governor with sexual harassment.
(25:13) Now I'm gonna keep it basic now. But now we understand that the people are in trouble. And so, we have what we call mutual aid. It's not new. And so, whenever the community is in trouble, we have the faith base step up, we have people in the community is reaching out, and everybody's showing they humanity, right, that's what's happening now. Everybody is starting to organize and move around the old, that is not working for the people. And so homeless people, the working class, the working poor, it's only going to rise up because the last time I checked, minimum wage is disappointing.
(26:07) You know, I can go on all night. It’s bananas.
Nico
(26:13) Yeah, I can you talk a little bit about the work addressing street sweeps that you've been doing, and first explain what the street sweeps are and what you have been dealing with in tackling this with the coalition
Marcus
(26:30) So, as you know, I'm a board member with Picture the Homeless, and I'm part of another group here in New York City called Stop the Sweeps campaign. What we tend to be doing here in New York is, we've been approaching the people on the street and really trying to get a feel of what they need, and how the police been going about treating and dealing with them as a person, as a human being, and they belongings. And we know, here at Picture the Homeless, we have helped people to file lawsuits against New York City, because when police think that you know, you're by yourself and nobody cares about you, they tend to take everything into their hands and throw away your Social Security card, they get sanitation to make you move out of your spot and throw everything in the garbage. And now you're walking around like you just got here, you can be born here, but you have all your possessions and your sleeping bag, but the police made you get out of your box, your sleeping bag, and has the Sanitation Department throw it all the way. And these are the things that's going on here in New York City, people are finding that the police and the Sanitation Department are working together, you know, they stuff get thrown out, you know, it's really a challenge. There's so many good people right now doing good work on monitoring what goes on with our folks out there, when it comes to Stop the Sweeps. But me as a longtime member with Picture the Homeless, we always been on the streets and trying to find out what's been going on with our folks like disciples.
Sabaah
(28:38) I just feel like people need to understand that anything that we allow to be done in our name, you're consenting to that happening to you one day, be it be it 10 years, 20 years, 50 years, and it shouldn't take self-interest for us to care. But I feel like people don't understand the ways that we're one organism. We're one species, one society. And so, when it was Ferguson, when they came with tanks, and military weapons and all that, it was all of the leftovers and the extras that they had left from all the wars that they were waging overseas. So, all of us sitting back and allowing them to do whatever they wanted overseas to other people in the name of our freedom, the moment that they needed to, they were able to turn those same weapons against us.
(29:25) And so, when I'm hearing your work, you know, I really commend you for what you're doing. I commend you for being out there because I think what it does it, it reminds us that the boundaries of our humanity are wider than we thought, and just because somebody isn't domiciled, or they don't live inside of a structure or a home the way you’ve come to recognize it, that still needs to be us. And it should hit you the same way as somebody coming up in your crib and throwing away all your stuff would hit you, because we're human beings first and foremost. And these property lines and private property and trespassing, these limitations on freedom that they put on people, when they provide no services, opportunities, or ways out to the contrary, you have to consider that that's happening to you and your family and people just like you right now, because it is, there's no difference in between us. And I think, you know, if we don't choose to listen now, it’s only a matter of time before it’ll be at anybody's front door.
Marcus
(30:21) I was on a phone earlier with some of my folks from the west coast. And we are realizing that we are trying to put together a legal clinic for our folks that's living out there, because there's no legal clinic for homeless people. What they got out here in New York is not a legal clinic for homeless people, they got legal clinics for all types of other stuff. And they’ll run a homeless person through the system like anything else. So what we're trying to put together — and it's gonna be a while, but this is what's going on with talks around the country in places like Seattle, Colorado — is we are trying to put together a legal clinic and process in some of these cities and states. We have some law students right now in New York City that are interested in working with Picture the Homeless and Stop the Sweeps. But right now, we are a little ways off from that, but we need a legal clinic that's going to help minister and help homeless folks fight against injustices to them. These are the things that we are up against, this is part of the struggle.
Nico
(32:01) Yeah. Can you tell us a little bit more about the significance of Picture the Homeless being homeless-founded and homeless-led? And why that's so profound?
Marcus
(32:13) Yeah, no doubt, indeed. So, this is what it is. In 2021, we have a whole lot of organizations, that's homeless-led, right? But Picture the Homeless is the only homeless-founded organization in the nation. And so, let me explain to you in the audience with that is. That means our forefathers was homeless in the New York City shelter system. And at the time, Giuliani was the mayor. And so, they had the police running up in the shelters, right, where our founders was, dragging homeless people out of bed, flipping them up and down, like cartoon characters. And they said, “Wait a minute, this this is not right.” And so that's how Picture the Homeless was found, by two homeless men in New York City at the Bellevue shelter, then we became homeless-led. We don't have a pay staff, and we remain that way to the current day. So, we're not only homeless-found, we are homeless-led. And I'm one of the people that helps lead that. Plus, I'm a board member.
(33:45) We got a lot of homeless-led, but we don't have a homeless-found, and Picture the Homeless still holds the crowd.
Nico
(33:55) I think people often have this idea, especially people who don't know anybody who has ever experienced living without a home, this idea that there should be services in the city to take care of you. But that's actually not the case. And I think this comes as a really big surprise to people that the kind of nonprofit and earlier I use the term shelter industrial complex.
Are there any connections that we can make between nonprofits and this idea of shelter industrial complex, and lack of care and support that people receive? Can we talk a little bit about like, are these institutions part of the problem?
Marcus
(35:05) So, I'll take the lead. Most definitely, because whenever the corruption is done, it gets swept underneath the rug. So, when we get money for homeless folks, right, it's not distributed properly, right? And so, we pay people to take care of our most vulnerable residents, and when that is not done properly, the people struggle and suffer, and somebody have to be accountable for this. Because you're supposed to be your brother's keeper. And you're not doing that. You tell them, I just got this money, you come to you come back tomorrow and we're gonna figure this out. When you come back tomorrow it’s, you know what, come back two months from now. And if that don't work out, that don't work out.
(36:08) And so, we have a lot of city organizations that aren’t relevant anymore. They need new management, they need to really come together with community, because community is now showing city agencies how this thing is being done. We know what our people need. We know who needs supportive housing, we know who's mentally ill, and they don't need the police. They don't need to be killed. We can help you to assess our folks in a much safer manner. If you just work with us, let us take the lead. Because we are the experts. We are out there with them. And we know this.
Sabaah
(37:01) Yeah, I mean, I think that's on point. And I think it goes back to what you were saying earlier, Marcus, about all the -isms that are at play, because the reason why you have to specify homeless-founded, homeless-led is because the nonprofit system is feeding directly out of the liberal arts education system, which is already, you know, privileging people who have access to a college education, who have access to a career in a public sector. If you're coming in at entry level, you know, there's this expectation of wages and hours and things that don't necessarily allow you to hold a whole lot of extra responsibility in the way that a lot of people — Black folks, immigrants, poor people — have to have.
(37:45) And so, you already have this setup, where people are coming in with the savior complex, and there's absolutely corruption. You have nonprofits that are racially from the top down, you can look, and you will see white people at the top of their staff, and if you're lucky, when you get to the direct services, when you start getting to people of color. And those people of color, their jobs are insecure, you know, the grant cycle comes and goes, they're in and out, they're let go, or they're dealing with burnout, or they're being forced to use ineffective strategies and policies, because that's in line with whatever grant, because it's within a capitalist system.
(38:21) So, just because it's a nonprofit, that doesn't mean that it's not about profit, that just means that it doesn't have shareholders. That doesn't mean that they don't have this bottomless requirement for a need — their agenda can’t be to shrink and disappear. Like it needs to be sustainability. So, if you're sustaining something that's based on a need, then you have to sustain that need. You're not working people out of that, you know what I mean? And so, I think that yeah, I think it's everything that you said. And a lot of this stuff involves people changing. How can you suggest that someone can change their own life when you're modeling the status quo in your organization? And that's what I saw, in my experience before I began to work for myself. That's what I saw a great deal of the time, and people may have meant very well, but your model, your whole entire institution is structurally counter to what you say your goal is. And so, I think it needs a whole entire revamp, I think a lot of money that's in salaries would be better spent in people's hands. And I know that's something a lot of people probably wouldn't want to hear. But that's the reality of the situation: these problems are not so complicated that they need all of these master's degrees of people getting six figures to think about it all the time. It’s that resources need to be moved.
(39:43) But at the same time, I don't want to put it all on the nonprofit sector and I don't even think it can all be on mutual aid. I think more weight goes on policy that we want to give credit for just because we don't trust politicians. You know, I saw a power handoff between two white men, I didn't really see like my great hope for the future and this past election. But nevertheless, what will be required is a massive movement of resources. It’s something more than what we can accomplish as individuals. And that's what democracy theoretically could be, is a vehicle for what we can accomplish collectively with the strength of our real numbers. So, we have to have those policy changes, we have to have that corruption being cleaned out, we have to keep pushing and holding these people accountable.
(40:28) And part of it is, let's not paint a false narrative: power being handed off within the 1% is never going to be a victory for the working person. It doesn't matter how beautiful the rhetoric is of that politician. You know, what I mean? It’s not about giving up on democracy, it’s about taking it into our own hands, and we have to have organization. But we are a very, very long way away. And I think sometimes we want to celebrate things, we want to tell ourselves this better now, we want to tell ourselves, the problem was Trump, but “Whose Streets” took place during Obama. You know what I mean?
Nico
(41:05) Like, yeah, this seems to be a really difficult thing for, can we say, a liberal mindset, to encounter what you're just saying: that events emerged that we're still seeing the effects of, in an Obama presidency.
Sabaah
(41:31) And because people's response is, I just have to have hope, Oh, it's so bleak, it’s so depressing, just let me have this hope. And that's why they want to believe in each of these presidents. And for me, I'm extremely hopeful, because I'm alive. And the thing is, if you speak to homeless people, if you speak to people who've experienced the other side of structure and establishment, you understand what it means to be hopeful: it’s to know that as long as you have your body and your health and your well-being, your spirit, that means that you have every blessing that there is to offer. And the rest of these things are accessories. I operate on a level of hope that allows me to deal with the reality of what it is. And that's what I hope can become contagious, we can look at reality and say, “Our people are on the streets, and they're being mistreated. And we have what it takes to change that.”
Marcus
(42:21) So, I think what's important is that we are now seeing an awakening in communities and cities around the United States. And so, if we can remember in the French Revolution, when they went to war, the first people they killed was the artists, because the artists inspire the movement. And so that's what's happening here today, you know, art is being challenged. However, you’ve got Sabaah and satirist Marcus Moore here and we’re gonna take that to another level.
(43:06) I think we need to get back into what that looks like to barter with each other, because nobody that I know can play the money game, my community is really struggling. And, you know, it doesn't matter how much money you give them: it still might not be enough. But if we learn how to barter, if we start bartering a lot more what our services skills and trade in our community, we might not have too much need for money, you know what I'm saying? And so. these are some really important times. How can I help my brother without, you know, actually putting a strain on myself? And after I do this here, I can go to my night job, because, you know, my volunteer job, I enjoy doing it for the community. How can I inspire more people to do what I do in the community and understand that it's not always about money — we know you got to pay your bills, but you can always go to work somewhere, pick up cans and bottles like I did and still make it happen.
Nico
(44:27) Do you want to tell us a little bit about your art, Marcus?
Marcus
(44:30) So, what I do is I take my experiences, and I put them into short plays. And I make that happen. I invite people into my world of being homeless. Sometimes I use on poetry, sometimes I use short skits and dress up and perform. Sometimes I get together with other people from other countries and do documentaries and stuff like that. I get the ideas from the places and the spaces that I sit in with people — not just homeless, but people who are experiencing domestic violence, people who are experiencing bad relationships, people who who just are not feeling hopeful, whatever they try to do or whoever they try to be, whatever they might be depressing them — I take all those experiences, people from AA meetings, and put them into my what I call cultural art, and make characters out of that and put it into short videos and skits and be able to act it out in my poetry and things of that nature. So, you know, that's what's happening with me. It’s never a dull day when you’re hanging out with satirist Marcus Moore.
Nico
(46:09) I'm wondering if we can talk a little bit further about mutual aid. Sabaah, the experience of making the film while the events are unfolding, did something shift for you and your understanding of care and mutual aid? Or did you find that, oh, yeah, this is what mutual aid is? Were you surprised by anything about the about how mutual aid played out in your time there?
Sabaah
(46:54) I mean, it was really like a crash course for me in what organizing really was and looks like in real time. Before that, it was like, okay, like, there was the Civil Rights Movement, they boycotted the buses, we got the right to vote, you know what I mean? So, seeing the day in and day out of all of this, yeah, mutual aid was absolutely crucial.
(47:23) It feels like, as a Black person, as somebody with a very non-traditional family, as somebody who's gone through all types of different living situations and financial situations, and all kinds of up, down, left, or right, it's something that you know, intrinsically in your heart, what it means to have love, what it means to give of yourself, what it means to recognize when you have enough to share, and trust that it is going to be returned to you. So, it was a very familiar feeling.
(47:57) I think that one thing that I noticed, though — and I do want to stress to brother Marcus this is no disrespect or conflict to your point — but it's not nearly enough. When people are being extracted from so severely, I think [mutual aid] is important because what it does is it feeds our spirit, and it reconnects us to our humanity to come hand in hand and say, I'm gonna bring the peanut butter, you bring the jelly, together we make a sandwich, and we eat for the day. We have to keep doing that. And when we when we do that, we go hand in hand, we make our sandwich, we have to let that fuel us to go get the rest of our shit. Because that was one thing that landed on me is like, this ain't gonna be enough books and breakfast every month — this is absolutely beautiful, but are these kids eating good every single day? Are they going home to stable environments every day, are they gonna have someone to read with them? There's a massive, massive amount of need and it's proportional to the violence and the greed and extraction that is taking place. So, I think mutual aid is one of many things that can fuel us and power us up for the next phase of the work which is demanding what we deserve at a scale to which it can address our needs.
Marcus
(49:14) Yes, I think that's I think that's positive because mutual aid, in my mind, is what's happening now, mutual aid is going to be the backbone right now, because like I said before earlier in the session that we got the coalitions and all them, they did a good job of getting our politicians involved with things, and my hat goes off to them. But mutual aid has to take it another step higher than just delivering groceries. You got to take it to another level, it's up to the mutual aid era now, because the community needs us. I can’t say nothing else.
Nico
(50:34) There's this type of terror that I think a lot of people are finding suddenly they're facing in looming evictions. And I think a lot of people who maybe have never imagined themselves ever being in a position in which they very well might lose their housing are suddenly saying, Wait a minute. Who's going to save us? And it sounds like from the two of you that, that there isn't going to be just some person entering the scene who's going to save us and that it's going to have to take mass organizing. And that mutual aid needs to happen while we, as you said, Sabaah, go get what we all deserve.
(51:46) Marcus, what do you see as being one of the most pressing issues for the people joining us tonight to turn their eye to, turn their gaze to, to have a higher elevated sense of awareness about, related to either the street sweeps or voucher system or shelter system? Like, what do you what do you envision?
Marcus
(52:24) What I envision is that now we all have to act like one body one mind, because we are all in it together: homeless, working class, I should say, the poor working class. It's to the point that now you can't say,” Oh, look at him, he's bugging out. He's this, he's that.” No, now you really have to be like, “No, don't make fun of nobody, that can be you. No, that's not funny.” Maybe you need to ask if he need something, or put $1 in his cup, or whatever you can to help that person.
(53:20) We’re going to have to educate ourselves or history. We're going to have to look at what people did before us and use those lessons for this day in time. I'm not saying we have to duplicate that system. But it's good to learn from history. It's good to know what works, what don't work. We know from history that mutual aid has always came in some form of help to the community, we know that even the faith base tends to start to wake up after a while. But I really think that it's going to take one mind, one body, and for all of us to be able to really educate ourselves and really get into the heart of this and into the stories — we all gonna have to be griots to tell each other, to let our future generation know, we try to pass the torch, but we got to get it right. So that way you can take the lead.
(54:35) So, we know that those who got monetary they don't got no feelings, they good they generations is good for the next 100 years. But the community we're gonna need to really enlighten and study and love on each other and get a chance to know who's who. Since I've been an activist, I've been able to talk to so many different cultures around the world who I wouldn't even be in a room with, and I have learned to love these people. So, we're gonna have to step out of our comfort zone and talk to one another, we're gonna have to react, interact. We have to interact and find out what you like to eat. You know, we might have to say, “Well, you know what, you look nice today.” We might have to complement each other. We're gonna have to build relationships.
Nico
(55:55) Saabah. what are you finding yourself turning your sort of orientation and gaze toward right now amidst COVID and a new, can we say regime change? What do you have your eye on?
Sabaah
(56:20) Honestly, I think my M.O. is pretty much very similar between COVID and this quote, unquote, regime change, which feels very similar to the same regime to me. I am really prioritizing mental health and trying to understand my own as well as those who I'm fortunate enough to get to know their stories. Because I think that, you know, there's an individual revolution that has to take place within every person that's going to participate in the movement. If they're going to show up to mutual aid, if they're going to show up to the protest, they show up to anything, if they're going to last in an organization, they're going to be able to collaborate with individuals for 10 years, 15 years, however long it takes to really get work to actually hold water, then we have to be mentally sound and emotionally sound. We have to understand, what are the psychological demons of our moment, of our time? And what is the discipline that we need and the love and the tenderness and the care that we need to heal all of that? And I think all of that is really intrinsically tied into this political work.
(57:33) Because what I have seen through observation is, I think that's the point at which things really do fall apart at a point of organizing, where the violence that comes from the system, from the powerful at the top, it trickles down, and it trickles into us and we carry it around in our bodies and in our psyches and in our hearts. And we hit a moment of difficulty and a snag. All of that stuff that's pent up that we know we can’t go and let off on a police officer or somebody who's quote unquote above us, we let that off on our colleague or our partner or somebody who, I’m cis and they’re trans, so I know my word is gonna hold my weight, I'm gonna automatically have a bigger same group. Or I'm a man and they’re a woman and I know that I feel entitled to a certain type of domination.
(58:22) That’s happening over and over and over again, that's purely a result of the fact that all of us are sick to different degrees, different ways, different symptoms, but we are all sick because we are in a sick environment. And we're breathing sick air and drinking sick water.
(58:38) And so that has always been my mission from day one out the gate. It was my mission when I went to Ferguson. And it's going to continue to be my mission throughout all of this because, you know, I'm into the nitty gritty, I'm a storyteller. When you get into the nitty gritty, you see the same humanity, you see the same sin, from the undomiciled up all the way to Trump Tower, we're all susceptible to those same human elements. And I'm really interested in the way that they overlap.
(59:09) And I think because of that love, because of that bonding, because that sharing and that care that we're forced to do, as community, I actually think that it puts us ahead of the curve. Because I think that we have the tools for healing and for growth, for resilience and adaptation in a way that you don't have when you have money to solve all those problems for you. And so, as the change is coming, as the tide is turning and the climate is shifting, those of us who have been in boot camp, by no choice of our own, are going to be the ones who are going to be most adaptive and most resilient. And that's what really gives me hope when I think about our situation.
Nico
(59:50) So, in closing, I want to thank you both so, so much for taking the time out of your busy lives to come talk with me and to share your thoughts with a public that we actually can't see, which is very strange. Maybe other people don't find it as strange, but I definitely miss being able to see some faces but it's so wonderful to see you both.
(1:00:24) On Thursday, March 4 At 7:30 we will strategize creative solutions that anyone can get involved with. It'll be the same time, same place, and same Zoom. You will learn more about how to get involved with Mutual Aid NYC and ongoing campaigns across the city. And we'll see you again on March 11 with our next guest speakers.