EPISODE 03
(Note: All timestamps on this episode are 4:51 ahead because the recording was started that much earlier)
Nico
(4:51) Hello, welcome. Home is a Human Right is produced by a collective of volunteers within Mutual Aid Housing Strategies, an affiliate of Mutual Aid NYC with the guidance and support of citywide leaders of the movement for housing justice. For the visually impaired joining us, I'm wearing a Navy dress sitting in front of my computer on occupied land. There's a window with closed blank blinds behind me.
(5:13) We are convening in the midst of mass death — some 500,000 people have died from COVID across the United States. We are one month into a new administration that continues a legacy of organized abandonment of migrant peoples, the working poor, people in prisons and detention centers, teachers, nurses, families, and those living without homes. The experience of not having a home has become the norm for nearly 100,000 New Yorkers and as many as 1.2 million are currently on the brink of eviction. The median home price in Manhattan and much of Brooklyn is more than $1 million. The rate of homelessness in the city today is at least double what it was a decade ago, a rate we have not seen since the Great Depression.
(6:01) 20% of the city's hotels operate as homeless shelters and the city spends upwards of $3.2 billion per year and the homelessness problem without solving it. One baby in every 100 who was born in New York City Hospital is brought home to a shelter, and in family shelters among head of households, 93% self-identify as black or brown. Right now, over 200,000 eviction cases are pending in New York City courts.
(6:24) We're joined today by Ms. Flowers who has been an activist, artist, and community leader for her entire life. She started organizing with the Scranton youth chapter of the NAACP, marching with Dr. Martin Luther King on Washington DC in 1963. Back then, they were fighting for jobs, justice, and housing. And she's still fighting for jobs, justice, and housing. For the last three years, Ms. Flowers has been a leader with Vocal in New York, fighting for a home for every New Yorker. Although she is most famous for confronting the mayor at the gym, her role at Vocal New York goes much deeper. Flowers has also helped organize and run meetings and actions as well as lobbies elected officials on a local, state, and federal level. A Brooklyn resident of over 35 years, she's an active performer in the New York City theatre, TV and film scene.
(7:16) We're also joined today by Winsome Pendergrass, a community organizer, home health aide, domestic worker, and tenant in Brownsville, Brooklyn. She immigrated to the United States from Jamaica and has been fighting for workers and tenants’ rights ever since. As a member of New York Communities for Change and Housing Justice for All. When Winsome isn't out causing trouble and fighting to cancel rents, she loves to read, garden, and spend time with her granddaughter. Hi you two.
Winsome
(7:42) So good to be here. Thank you.
Nico
(7:47) So there's a lot going on right now. And just yesterday, there was a really big event. As far as if you want to kind of tell us about what was going on yesterday.
Ms. Flowers
(8:02) Yesterday, Today, or today, yesterday, City Hall today? Yeah. Did I lose a day? Today, we went to City Hall, well across from city hall to 250 Broadway, where the council members have their offices. And I understand Heastie has a place there as well. Who's the, you know, speaker of the assembly. And we were fighting there to get this Intro 146 which was introduced by Steve Levin, I think three years ago. But it asked that the city vouchers we have for housing, come up to market level. The first vouchers we had I took mine with me today. It's right here my folder. The first voucher we had was called a Link voucher. See this? Okay. And I took this to the first hearing I ever did for Vocal was with Steve Levin and Jumaane. Williams, when they were co-chairs, the Housing Committee for the City Council. Okay, they had never seen it. They didn't even know it was in it. And I said do you know it says yeah, I said you can have it and they said, Oh, don't you need it, and I said no, it has to be renewed every three months. So, it says here, commencement 8/8 and expiration 11/06.
(9:40) So, every three months, this had to be renewed. And you had to go through this rigmarole of just to get it. You have to get your birth certificate, you had to have a psychiatric evaluation by psychiatrists. You have to have a social psych evaluation by your caseworker or social worker in this in this system. You had to have a physical exam. And then what else? Yeah, oh, we had to get your birth certificate. I live in Texas, that took, you know about a month. And oh, your proof of your income, I'm retired on Social Security, I had to go get my benefit letter. And then you have to do that every month. Every month. While you're living in the shelter, you have to go back to social security and get the same letter again. But the killing part of this Link voucher, not that the rent was only $1,268. That's the allocation. And the way the program works is, I pay a third of my income as an elder, and a person on Social Security retirement benefits, but there are also people on disability etc. But the very first page, it says disclaimer, the city of New York is implementing this program in order to provide assistance to eligible individuals, including rental assistance a specified amount. However, this Rental Assistance Program is subject to and contingent upon funding appropriations in implementing this new Rental Assistance Program, the city of New York is not providing a payment guarantee of any kind to any person or entity. The City of New York is not entering into any contract or lease with, nor making any promise to tenants, landlords or any other person or entity in connection with this program. So, they give with one hand, they snatch back with the other.
(11:38) So, of course, when you get in the shelter system, you're like all excited, all I have to do is, is get all this paperwork together and apply. And I'm going to get a voucher program, which will help me get an affordable apartment for me. Because I only have to use 1/3 of my income. And we have gotten that changed. It used to be you have to use 70% of your income. And Reginald T. Brown, who's on the board now. Oh, I just got elected to the Board of vocal New York. I'm so excited. And he went to every legislator and said, Can you live on $12 a day? Because that's what his disability I think it was amount left him with after he paid his rent, $12 a day? And they all said No, of course not. He said, Well, that's what you're asking me to do. And they changed it.
(12:32) So now it's 1/3 of your income for any of these programs. But at the same time, they turn around and on the first page say we're not responsible for this money. And as long as there's money, you'll get paid. But other than that, no. And so, every time we go to an owner or landlord, they would go well, do you have a program, we don't take programs, which is illegal, that source of income discrimination. But when you go to HR a report it, I think they have five lawyers for 100,000 cases. So, they are severely backlogged. They are hamstring as you would say, because they say one thing and then they do another, or they don't have the ability. I always say they're paper tigers, because there's no one to stop them from saying this person can't have the apartment because they use the program.
(13:25) And we've got the analogy for someone else. When you pay your phone bill. They don't ask where you got the money from. So why is it important to them where the money comes from when we pay our rent? Right? And it’s for one year. Anyway, you signed a one-year lease, and they changed it now. So that now with the new program, Cityfheps. Landlords keep saying, you have so many programs. Make it one program. We got the Cityfheps voucher, right?
Nico
(13:54) What is the and for those who are joining us who don't know what the subscribe voucher program is, what's Cityfheps?
Ms. Flowers
(14:01) The Cityfheps means that, it's anybody living in New York City, who has a reason of just cause meaning they're on Social Security, they're disabled, they're coming out of a shelter. Basically, they're going to help you get permanent housing, and you're required to pay 1/3 of your income kind of ensure that you can stay there. But guess what the big kicker was? The new amount for this new voucher wrapping all of them up into one was now called Cityfheps and they gave you $1,246 a month for rent. And no apartment is available in any borough for that amount. We know this. Everybody knows it. But you have to go every day, every day to go look for an apartment, go through New York connections.
(15:02) And now the hardest part is most of the shelters do not have WiFi. But every potential landlord or owner wants an email address. They're not calling you. They want to get on their computer and go through the stuff and then send you some information or an appointment. It's really crazy. So, I said they're always given with one hand and taking back with the other. And it makes it so difficult, which is why we were very happy to get several laws changed in favor of the tenant. The big day that happened was July 14, 2018. While we were in Albany, and the Assembly and the Senate voted for eight of nine bills in favor tenants’ rights for us mostly in New York City, but also some for the rest of the state.
Winsome
(15:54) I'm so happy that it happened in 2018. Can you imagine if we were still fighting in 2020, they would have screwed us over and they're gonna say, [inaudible]. That said, we got it done.
Ms. Flowers
(16:11) Liz Krueger, who had been a senator for 17 years, now 19, said it was the best day in the Senate for her ever because she had been working for decades for the tenants’ rights. And they had stopped them and stymied them at every turn. But we had such, it was the first time I was ever there and saw both houses vote for with the people and not stand with the rich politicians, the rich corporate Wall Street interests, it was great.
Nico
(16:43) What was your impression of that time Winsome, especially given your history of living in New York and paying rent?
Winsome
(16:53) First of all, let me say, home is the center of life. Yeah, it is the refuge from the grind of work, the fight for floor space to stand in the subway, skip across the garbage in Brooklyn and then go home. You know, we can close the door, we can sigh. Home is where, it's a wellspring of a person's being, of a personhood. And home is where our identity takes root, blossoms, where our dreams and culture and everything is nourished. And after we come inside, and we might get ourselves a glass of water or a glass of wine, we can close the door, make love, let our hair down.
Ms. Flowers
Because we have our own key.
Winsome
(17:58) And that’s home. And every living human being deserves that. And our kids deserve that. As I said to you before, when we were going through all this and I told you that seeing the film, Claudine in 1977 really had an impact on me. I think it was a setup. But I didn't know I was gonna be in New York, you say I'm preaching out at a Baptist, so when I get to New York, and I happen to be looking for an apartment and get an apartment, I found out that there are so many clauses and loopholes to keep us bound and to hold us, It’s is as if they come together in the middle of the night, and they said let's make some rules and some laws to keep them right there that they can't move. Because without a home, you can't do anything else. You can't drive you cannot succeed. So, we need home. We don't not only need a home, we need a comfortable home. Right? And we need a home that makes our family feel good about themselves. Our children can say yes, I can do that I can be the next Michelle Obama i can be the next VP, I can be the next AOC I can be the next Nico. Condoleezza Rice, you it's the possibility is endless.
Ms. Flowers
(19:33) But one in 10 school children are living in shelters. That's a horrible statistic.
Winsome
(19:42) Right? So, when so when I really look into how the housing institution is structured, you can see the disparity there. And you can see that they don't even have us in mind other than to say, let's keep taking from them, let's keep taking out of their pockets. And keep taking out of their pockets and making it so difficult for them. If you have to pay three weeks, three checks, for one month's rent, something is very wrong with that. How many checks have to go towards your rent, you still have the MetroCard, you still have medication, you still have your kids to take care of, you still have food. Food is a precious commodity to keep the nourish our bodies and our souls and our mind to keep us going. So, as you asked about witnessing July 14 2018, it was glorious. It was wonderful. But for people who are joining for the first time, I don't want him to think that it was just an easy walk for January of 2018, we went to Albany and we got it passed. I have met people who told me that their fight, they have been fighting those very laws for 30 years. It's one of the biggest, it is gigantic, humongous, it is something that will go down in the history books, that there were people of every generational ages that were fighting that fight. So, I jumped in almost to the end. But I am so grateful I met people who were there before.
(21:43) And let me let me shout out to some people who did have some sleepless nights from NYCC. And the Housing Justice for All, you see, I'm going to get myself in trouble if I start calling people but let me say the coalition, the coalition that comes together, but I will call two persons named transair Weaver, Pete Nagy, and Jesse Shapiro. I don't know where to get this strength from, where they get all their wisdom from, you know, supported by the other people. Dacenia Glover. I remember her crying. Now here's the thing a lot of people don't know is that leading up to the last minute, Governor Cuomo refused to meet with us, he has never met with us. We've been going there for years and years, every Tuesday we are taking off work where we're going to Albany and he refused to meet with us. And at one point coming down to the last day, the coalition said no, we need to have a conversation. And then he was like, Okay, I'll give you five or I'll give you four or something like that. And then they said, okay, we need to send three people inside. So, they said, okay, Winsome you're gonna be one, I think Rebecca was supposed to be the next person someone else was supposed to go. And then they were saying they’d call and they were saying, Are you guys ready. And at the last minute, we say screw you (inaudible).
(23:18) We refuse. Because if we were coming there every Tuesday for the past two, three years, we were rocking the buildings with all our chants and our sound and our songs. He came in once on the million-dollar staircase, and he said, Oh, this is what's going to happen. We're going to take care of tenants and dadadada. But he didn't have the dignity of saying, you know what, let me go sit with them for five minutes and hear what they're saying. Yes, we have been putting a lot of letters, you know, on his desk and all of that. But he didn't treat us with the dignity of saying let's meet with these people. We had so many things going on all over the state of New York from Buffalo to Long Island. We have testimony days we have so many people were crying and telling their stories. So, they assemble the people and senators who were willing to sit and listen and to get a feel of what the challenge was going through. And he just brushed us off. Yes, we disturb a lot of his birthday parties or he's pissed about what was happening. We disrupted a lot of these dinners. And we disrupted a lot of his little talk in meetings that his friends were giving him some little award.
(24:40) So, I guess what he did, too, he threatened a lot of the union people that they should not back us. But we did what we did. We pull the fight, pull it out of our hearts, we put ourselves on the line for the people who could not make the journey, the tenants that could not make the journey to Albany. There are people in wheelchairs, they were in their beds, they were disabled to the point where they cannot move, where the landlord was beating on their door and ready to throw them out in the street. And when we did it.
Ms. Flowers
(25:15) Yeah, and we joined together. But one of the biggest things we've done so far also is have an upstate downstate coalition, to have a tenant owner coalition, to have public housing, we're fighting for everyone, because everyone deserves a decent place to live for a fair price, When I moved to New York in 1966, this is how the Upper West Side got so wonderful: new buildings had some kind of rule that it was 80/20. 80% was market rent, but 20% was low income, solid. And that's how they populated the Upper West Side. So, you didn't know who had the lower rent apartments, except they probably didn't have a terrace or something, you know, but you didn't know because a resident is a resident, a taxpayer is a taxpayer. Once you're in and stabilized, you can do everything. But without stabilization, with people on the street, under the bridges, in the parks till they started to close in the parks, in the subway till they started to close on the subway, that was where they lived, because they had no other recourse.
(26:38) That was one of the laws that got changed. You can't charge three month's rent, you can only have one month's rent one month security. That was one of the laws that got changed. And there's no sunset in them. This was what is corrupt Real Estate Board of New York, we call it REBA New York. These are the kinds of laws they have gotten enacted in their favor against tenants, driving us from the city. But if you lived in the city, you were raised here, you have a right to be here. I always say, Why don’t you go by the voting records? Where did that person vote for 20 years, and wherever they voted, they have a right to come back to that neighborhood. They have a right to live in that neighborhood. They shouldn't be gentrified out, there should always be a fair housing thing.
(27:30) Because in ‘63, when we marched with Dr. Martin Luther King, as I said, it was a job, justice, and fair housing. But in ‘64, we got the Civil Rights Act. In ‘64, we got the housing Rights Act. And then in ‘65, we got the Voting Rights Act, which still isn't right, to this day, which now we have the John Lewis Voting Rights Act. And we're going to get that through, the point being when we stand together, we're like that fist. We're no longer like this, where that fist. And we're not turning back and we're not going back. We have stood and fought too long. That's what makes us strong. I love it.
Nico
(28:10) So right now, COVID, I mean, COVID has changed everything. And people who have never imagined themselves ever not being able to pay their rent are suddenly unable to pay their rent. How would you two, with your legacies of activism and doing on the groundwork for housing justice, how do you talk about this reality of all of these looming evictions? And the idea that it's not just, you know, I think one of our previous guests Celina Trowel with Vocal framed it is not necessarily just for eviction, but also that it's like pending homelessness, pending living without a home. So, I wonder if the two of you can talk about how things are shifting and what are the sort of demands now that so many people can't pay their rent?
Winsome
(29:11) It is before COVID every time we meet to make a point, let people know that at that time, there were 92,000 homeless people in the City of New York. And that was bad.
Ms. Flowers
(29:31) And homelessness increased 41% under Cuomo. Under Cuomo, it has increased 41%. So well, it's now the worst since the Depression, and unemployment is the worst since the Depression.
Winsome
(29:49) So, we always try to educate the masses because you know, sometimes people will look and say, oh the reason why that person is homeless is because they're lazy or they want something for free. Or they don't want to pay their rent, what they don't even understand is the politics behind it. And I'm not talking about the mom-and-pop homeowner. You know, I'm not talking about Uncle Charlie or Aunt Sylvia or Shakira, whoever. We’re talking about these honchos who have five buildings in Brooklyn, eight in Queens, 11 in Manhattan. And they are real piranhas. That's what they are. They are piranhas. It's about time for them to put people first and I'm talking about Albany now, our fight is with Albany. Every person in Albany should really put their voters first. We deserve to be treated with respect.
(31:05) One of the reasons why these developers and people who hold those big corporations, why they do to us what they do to us, is because they are allowed, they're allowed to do it, because Governor Cuomo does not speak out. As I said before, he has never addressed homelessness. He has never addressed tenants’ rights. I don't even know if it's in his vocabulary to address tenants, right? But he is expecting New Yorkers to vote for him every time an election comes around? I don't know what he's thinking now. But I know he was trying to force himself into a fourth term. And it's as if we have amnesia or something. And we do remember that he does nothing for us while sitting there. Right now, it is estimated 1.3 million people, tenants, are going to be suffering by May.
(32:20) Yes. 1.3 million tenants in New York City are going to be affected when the moratorium is lifted in May. Now they passed a budget. Sometimes I think that when they pass the budget, they're doing us a favor. And they passed the budget. Yeah, maybe buy a nine to whatever. And they passed the budget for 100 million.
Ms. Flowers
175 million, no billion.
Winsome
(33:04) They make it so hard for tenants able to fill out the paperwork. It is so hard. And then when you do fill it out, all you're getting is rejection, rejection, rejection. This past Tuesday, again, we made I made one of my favorite trips to one of my favorite places, which is called Albany, because we are sending out the message, we're serving notice on Albany that, we are coming back, because the work is not done. And there is still suffering. People are suffering and the landlords are lining up, waiting for the courts to be open so they can move people out on the street. But as long as we have strength in our bodies, we're not gonna let that happen.
Ms. Flowers
(33:51) We won one other strong provision, that in housing court, now you get a lawyer for free, that has prevented like 90% of the evictions before the pandemic, once we got that law into place.
Nico
So, before the pandemic, y'all were able to win…
Ms Flowers
(34:10)…90% of the cases with a lawyer, with that free lawyer. And remember, the moratorium is on single homeowners as well. You know, people living in their own homes. It wasn't just tenants. It was for a single homeowners and small homeowners. Nobody big, any of these guys, you know, Helmsley sphere or anything else, or steward city who would never take our vouchers. The point being that we're in this love together, we're in this, we're stuck in the rut together. And when we got the law passed, when I was evicted, I lost my rent stabilization, and I had a preferential rent. That's one of the laws that was changed. And many of the legislators told us, I have a preferential rent. You helped me keep in my apartment.
Nico
(35:14) Can you explain the preferential rent for those who are joining us who don't know what the history of preferential rent was, or what it was, in general?
Winsome
(35:25) Preferential rent is when a landlord rents you an apartment below the market rate, so yeah I went into the hospital because I had a preferential rent. And as I said before, when you have to spend three of your paychecks per month for your rent, that was what I was doing, you know, being a Jamaican, I was doing three jobs and looking for a fourth. But my body got overworked, my blood pressure was so high, I worked in the hospital, 12-hour shift, came home, it’s like seven o'clock in the morning, get in to sleep, cook some food, jump back on the train, go travel all the way to (unclear). But this particular Sunday morning, my body said I'm not going with you. I fell out to pass. So my two bottom numbers could be the Powerball. My two numbers for the blood pressure would have been the winning number for the Powerball. And I ended up in the hospital. And after coming out of the hospital, that's when I really make a dedicated effort to say, you know what, I got to fight this, you know, give it all that I got.
(36:39) So they give you the apartment below the market rate and you’re like yay, nice two bedroom and it’s only $1,200. But at that time, they had Governor Cuomo, not even Governor Cuomo but even governors before him, they cooked up this deal, that they could give themselves a 20% increase. So, it's not a 2 year or a one-year lease, you just see your rent, just keep leaping, it was just leaping, leaping, leaping. Because at that time, they had the right to do it. That was one of the things that one of the great victories, that we have that they cannot do that anymore. Also, when you leave out of an apartment, and they are renting it to someone else, they cannot give themself the 20% increase it Can you imagine they could have just thrown 20% on it.
Ms Flowers
(37:45) Anytime I left the apartment for any reason. If they could get three or four people to leave the apartment, because whatever they did, let the bathroom ceiling fall, not give you heat, not give you water again, whatever reason you left, that new tenant gave them a 20% increase in the rent. And that drove many of us out of the city.
Winsome
(38:12) All they had to do was to do a little cosmetic, just a little cosmetic touch to the apartment so that it looks inviting when they show it to you. And we were really suffering. But thank God we got that under control. We still have a big one now called the good cause of action that we are really really have to be pushing on the door for. Also the MCI.
Nico
What does that stand for?
Ms Flowers
Major capital improvement. You get a new stove or refrigerator…
Winsome
…if fix the elevator six times in the year, they tack it onto your rent. They put a new furnace in the window, they tack it on to your rent.
Nico
(39:10) So, not only is this happening, it's also with the right now where people can't even pay their rent.
Winsome
(39:17) Can’t even pay their rent. And whatever they're coming with now, for us released, it is for back rent for people who hold back rent before the COVID pandemic hit us. We're still, tenants are still out there in limbo. There is there is nothing out there to help the tenants to move forward. There is nothing out there to help the tenants to really breathe and for the family to really live a peaceful life.
Ms Flowers
And with the Good Cause, and this is out of New York City specifically, people who do not live in New York City have almost no rent protections whatsoever.
Winsome
Exactly. The landlord has, yeah, outside of the five boroughs, there's no protection.
Ms Flowers
(40:11) The landlord can come and say, you’ve got three days to move, you have 10 days to move, the rent is double next week, it's $100 more next month, you have no recourse until we started fighting together, there was nothing for them. So, people were really suffering. And many cities outside of New York City do not have shelters. In New York, you know, there's a law that says anyone who asked for a bed will be given a bed. It is mandated that if they send us to a shelter. We get there, one way or another. We will be kept indoors, you might sit in a chair for a day or two, until they do the intake, etc., and so forth. But on February 28, when I lost the appeal for my apartment, when I was evicted, the lady, the legal aid lady said, where do you want to go? I said, I don't know. She said you want to go to a shelter? I said, I don't know. She said Yes, you do. I said Oh, yeah. Okay. Where do you want to go? The Brooklyn or Bronx? I said I live in Brooklyn. She said okay. There are only two intake shelters in the city for women, single women. You are sent to 116 Williams in Brooklyn, or Franklin Avenue in the Bronx. Well, I know about the Help Center I was sent to in Brooklyn. It's run by Governor Cuomo’s, sister, Maria Cuomo Close. She's the director. Someone just told me a few days ago that in the Bronx is also a Help Center.
Nico
And this is, when you say Help Center you mean Help USA?
Ms Flowers
(42:01) Yes. And they told me he's invested in all of them. Yeah. Because when they did get his tax returns, I don't know a year before, he only had one charitable contribution. As rich as that man is, he gave $11,000 to Help Centers, USA.
Winsome
So we need to blow the lid off this now. We need to do some real groundwork. We need to find out all the people who are benefiting from these help centers and the shelters, we want to know how much they made during COVID.
Ms. Flowers
(42:41) We know how much Wall Street made, right? Until, until the beginning of the year, Wall Street, at the end of the year, Wall Street had made 77 billion and now it's a trillion dollars. Because this state will not tax money. They call it revenue generated by money. They won't tax it. They've gutted the tax laws. The other thing about me is I worked on Wall Street for 20 years. So, I could sit there and listen to the accountant say, don't pay the government, give us the money. We'll show you how to hide the money, this is what you do. Okay, you're going to go over the picture and see in Switzerland, we're going to open a million-dollar account for you over there. One reason Switzerland is so rich, also, is because if it's a numbered account, nobody knows the number, they keep the money. Yeah, okay. So, they gutted our tax laws. We had a stock transfer tax until 1981. From 1981 to date, we are giving the investors a 100% rebate. So, we're talking pennies on the dollar. But you do know there's like a trillion trades every day. So, imagine, like a million, at least, I think made a day or something. But the point is, we missed $14 billion from 1981 to now by giving them the one on 100% rebate, giving the money back to them.
(44:26) The second thing, the inheritance that I tell everybody, remember when Jackie Kennedy's kids had to sell some stuff to pay the inheritance tax. We always had an inheritance tax. They gutted that, so they don't have to pay that, capital gains. When you make a certain amount of money when you have an increase on your investment. That's a capital gains tax. They got it that the pied de terre, meaning you have many residences, what does the 183 days mean in income tax? That's where your residence is. You spend 183 days in New York, you're a New York resident. You pay New York income and New York City, New York state income tax, as well as your income tax. We used to have a resident right to work, tax, people who lived outside of New York and worked in New York had a tax to pay. They gutted that. So, they've taken billions and billions of our tax dollars, given them to the most wealthy. And they do believe in welfare, but only for the wealthy. I'm like, this has got to stop. We know that at the stop. And we know that if we get these things straightened out, we will have the $50 billion a year. We need to do everything. Every program, every social program, with no more lies, we remember we voted for the lottery because they said the money would go to education. And then we have no schools. The schools fail because they lie. They do the bait and switch all the time. That's the political way. But we've had it with them. And now we know they say as we say to them, we voted we organized we voted and now we flip the Senate to blue, we flip the city council to blue and even though de Blasio and Cuomo like to act like they're Republicans, we the people who voted for them are saying no mas, no more. We're not taking this crap from you anymore. You have to do what is best for all of the people right now. Because we're not taking it no more. We fight because we're right. And we know you're wrong. And you can't lie to us anymore. We're not stupid. We can add right?
Nico
So it's also, when the two of you or either of you are proposing that we tax the rich what is the thing that people often say that's against tax taxing the rich?
Winsome
(47:16) Our most famous governor said, we can’t tax them, because if we tax them they’re going to leave New York. And we are like, hey, there's only one New York. One, there's only one, no matter where you travel to. They are not leaving. Because they want to, they want to parade with their friends. They want to show how mighty and how powerful they are. They want to flaunt their money and their riches. So, if the governor of New Jersey can tax millionaires while living in New Jersey, why can't you? We don't see that logic of you saying you can’t tax the richest people. And you tax them the poorest of the poor among you. It just does not make sense. I don't know which college he went to, but he does make sense. Because I don't see. Hey, I might be the worst mathematician.
(48:29) But why can't you tax Jeff Bezos, okay, he is so rich. We took to the street or else Amazon would have would have had all of the government land over in Queens. We took to the streets, out there in the rain in the sunshine and snow. And we shouted, and we held up placards. And we said no, it's not gonna happen. You're not gonna give him all these tax breaks.
Ms. Flowers
(49:12) And the people came from Washington and told us that Seattle was one of the best places until Amazon got there. And now it's one of the worst that people living in their cars, people living in tent cities. It was horrible. They wouldn't give them any taxes. They and when they went to the City Council, the city council said well, at least pay, you're not paying for the cops, the firemen, the streets, the schools, or any of the infrastructures that run a city you're not paying for anything. Give us $261 for every person in the city, they said no, you can't make us. So, the Seattle people came here and told us the only way to handle Amazon is not to let them come. Don’t let them come in here.
Winsome
(50:01) And they’re still slithering like a snake. And you know, they have a warehouse over in Staten Island and I understand that they're trying to get to another one in Brooklyn or whatever. But as long as our coalition and this is the thing, we have to educate people because before when they said they were coming here, they made it sound as if it was all just tech jobs, tech jobs, young people leaving school, they want to get tech jobs. Okay. Ask the people who are now working in Staten Island, how technical their job is in the warehouse, it takes 15 minutes for you to walk to a bathroom for a pee break.
Nico
Yes, people are peeing in bottles.
Ms. Flowers
(50:49) Yes. They don't want to take a break. They don't want you to take a break. They won't give you adequate lunch. The workers came and stood with us and told us their work conditions. And then and then you rich politicians have the nerve to not grant the $15 an hour minimum wage for people to eat and to live? You have got to go.
Winsome
(51:14) We fought tooth and nail to get the $15 an hour. Every speech he made he talking about, oh we’re New York, we’ve been $15, shut your lying mouth, it wasn’t you, it was us, we marched, we lay down on the street. I remember us marching one day and when we went to some of these manufacturing places, and we heard the bad condition, how they were treating their workers, and we laid down on the pavement and demonstrated, but then he had he had to do it. He had to sign because we were not gonna let up and now he's patting himself on the back and taking all our glory. It's not yours dum dum down, sit down, you didn't do it. We forced your hand and we told you point blank that's what New York wants and setting the stage for it.
Ms. Flowers
(52:02) We’re always, always doing a die-in, we’ll lay down in a minute in the middle of the street. We have sat in front of Cuomo’s office in Albany and nobody would enter, they could come out but they couldn't get in. We have laid and sat, we closed the street in front of his office last week. And the week before that. We stopped the buses. It was amazing.
Winsome
We slept all night. All the other rich people that live on this 17th floor, they come out with the poodle and they have to pass us in sleeping bags.
Ms. Flowers
They do ask us, they do ask us, why are you here? And we tell them.
Winsome
(52:58) We’re sending a message to Governor Cuomo. He is such a terrible deployable person
Ms. Flowers
(53:08) He is no Mario. He's not his father. He's no Mario Cuomo.
Winsome
And I am very very upset because he's too silent.
Nico
(53:22) Yeah, let's talk about Carl Heastie.
Winsome
(53:25) You know what I said before, we turned this place, we flipped Albany and we turned it into the color that we want it to be. And it was a jubilant occasion to know that the three men in the room, and it's two people who look like me and you and we are saying Okay, now we're gonna have people on our side to do the things that we sent them there to do.
Ms. Flowers
The right thing, the right thing. Do the right thing.
Winsome
(54:10) Carl Heastie is not speaking up. I give kudos to Andrea, to our cousins since this whole debacle, what is going on right now. She has spoken up, we have heard her voice. We have heard her calling out the terrible behavior of our governor. I don't know if it is a secret or something that he has on Carl Heastie. Right now we are knocking on his door. We are about to push his door and we are we are marching on him. We are calling on him and we are depending on him. We're gonna hold him accountable for the oath of his office to take care of his people. And I hope somebody is going to see this and let him see it and hear me say, he might know my face right now or my voice, No, we put your ass in. We'll take it out. You need to start do what we send you there to do. We need you to stand up for the tenants. You don't only have homeowners in your constituents, you have tenants who are being harassed by landlords, you have tenants living in apartments that's not fit for human beings to live in with roaches and mice and mold and dripping faucets and elevators not working and seniors who have to walk upstairs on many flights of stairs, in you know, whatever sickness they're going through. Carl Heastie, we are putting you on notice.
(55:47) As I said this Tuesday, we had I think maybe about 30 taxi cabs that coalition put together and we ride up there. It's the warm up, we're doing the stretching, we know what you do best because we can take the buses up there. And we are testing the waters. A lot of people are getting vaccinated. I got my first shot. So, we are going we are we are now going back out and we were we were met, greeted, with at least nine or 10 you know, assembly people in Albany, who marched with us and they spoke and it is always, that set of people is always with us. You know, they came out, they join with us. They marched with us, they shout with us, dancing, we have to dance, and we have to sing. We're sending the message to Albany again: we’re coming, we’re coming and we’re not taking no for an answer.
Ms. Flowers
(57:01) And also, we must congratulate Heastie. We do have to congratulate him. So thus far, he's been a little quiet, but bills have been passing in the in the assembly. The Senate has been first, it seems, on almost every bill so far. But slowly but surely, he has his leadership and we're pushing him to stand with us. Because as Winsome, what does he have? What is the advantage to stand with Cuomo? What is the advantage to stand with Cuomo instead of with the voters? Because they always said everything we needed, everything we wanted and asked for, it was Cuomo. But now, we have two of the three people in the room. We want you to know we're with you. We got your back. And don't forget, that's why we did a sleep out. We had a vigil all night last week in front of his office in the Bronx, right? And we're ready to do it anytime. Again. We are not backing down. And we want you to stand with us because now we have the power. Let's go for it. We got a meeting with him, a Zoom meeting the week before that. And I got to say to him, we've waited for the entire history of New York State to get you here. We voted and fought and organized to get you in this position. I want you to use everything in your arsenal every hour you got pull every plug every string, everything you've got do it because now's the time. And we're counting on you. So, I'm gonna see, I'm counting on you. Please don't change back to red state blue. Stay blue.
Winsome
(58:57) I don't want this session to end without saying this. There are some people in the democratic machinery of Brooklyn. I'm gonna call her name, Rodneyse Bichotte made a statement the other day and I'm gonna say she was out of line when she likened Governor Cuomo to the Exonerated Five. First of all, she called them the Central Park Five, she doesn’t know anything. If you have ever read a newspaper, you should have known Rodneyse, they are not to be referred to as the Central Park Five. That was a label on them. They are now the Exonerated Five. But how can you put the treatment of those five young boys, they were boys, school aged boys, to a privileged white man. How dare you? Something went wrong on the left side of your brain. Then she even goes further to mention the name of Emmett Till. Is he crazy?
Did you ever read a clip of what happened to Emmett Till, age of 14, how he was taken by force out of his uncle's house to beaten, tortured, mutilated. And now you're gonna put Governor Cuomo in the same line with Emmitt Till’s name? Shame on you. As a black woman, I am not making it about color, but it is what it is. For you to say, what Governor Cuomo is going through now is likened to Emmett Till, something is wrong with that. And I need her to make an apology and say, you know, our description was wrong. Do not insult us. It is wrong. There's no way you can liken the two cases. No way.
(1:01:30) He refuses to step down. Emmett Till had nowhere to turn no one to turn to, to listen to his dilemma, to plead for him. The Exonerated Five they said time and time again. We didn't do it. We were innocent. Those five poor black boys, they think that they are to be thrown on the garbage heap of flight. So come on, Rodneyse. Don't get it twisted. You need to correct that. And we are gonna hold you accountable to come back and apologize for that statement that you made is wrong.
Ms. Flowers
(1:02:17) Yes, yes, definitely. I just want everybody to call Carl Heastie and tell him to stand up with us. Call tomorrow, stand with us. We got your back. And he should get well, you know, he was diagnosed with COVID. Make a speedy recovery. I'm praying for you. We need you.
I'm hard anyway at times. But you know.
Nico
For people calling tomorrow, what should they say?
Ms. Flowers
(1:02:55) They should say that we know that the vote is coming. And we need you to stand against Cuomo with us. Stand with us against Cuomo. Because we have your back. We voted for you. We got everything True Blue in this state. Do not let this so-called Republican governor give everything to the people who needed the least again. Give it to the people who need it the most. Stand with us working people, working families, people who make under $300,000, because that's where the tax base really changes. And even for them, they go oh, back to the rich. The rich shouldn't pay more taxes. The tax rate changes at $300,000. And they'll pay about $900 more a year.
(1:03:55) It's not that. We have 300 billionaires in New York who are not paying a dime to support New York in a fair way. It is not fair. It is not right. We're paying for them. Get them off our backs. Why should we work and poor people pay for the richest people to have more riches? Let us be logical and finally make it fair and right. 1865, 1868, 1870, we supposedly got the right to be citizens, the right to vote, the right to no longer be slaves. But that 13th Amendment says slavery is banned in the United States except when you've been convicted of a crime. That has to change. We are not the slaves anymore. We are voters and we want you to stand for our rights and principles with moral integrity, the way we voted for you. Do your job.
Winsome
(1:05:03) So, we are encouraging every tenant, every citizen of New York to get the numbers of your assembly person, of your senators and you got to, because there are people, there are small homeowners who have tenants still living with them who have not paid rent since the pandemic. So, if they don't have something set aside, their mortgages are going to be suffering. And when we are out there fighting, we are also fighting for those small owners, too. They're in the struggle with us. They are our brothers and this and our sisters, and we don't want to see one person lose their home.
(1:05:44) That's what sometimes some people get it all mixed up that you're fighting against landlord because you're wanting to lose their home, they're not fighting against anyone to lose their home. We're saying landlords should treat their tenants with respect, by law should not harass tenants. You have landlords since the pandemic, knocking on peoples’ door, asking them to pay their rent with their credit card. Do you know what that leaves you, for one or two months or your credit card? Where does that leave you? They have landlords telling people take it from a retirement account. You have landlords telling people, go to the loan shark. Come on. Why? And it's about time they take this profit that is going to these big honchos and put people first. The city or the country is as rich as the resources of its people. When your people can live a decent life and we can have our dreams and our aspirations come through for ourselves and our children, then the country grows. We are asking people now not to be silent anymore, not to be quiet, but to speak up and to reach out to your representative and let them know that we need vouchers. We need real vouchers, to help tenants. It is a shame that we have almost 45,000 children in shelter that cannot be right.
Ms. Flowers
(1:07:21) As a mother I would cry if I had to send my child to a shelter. And then them not knowing when they're coming home to the same place because they move people at willy nilly whenever they want. I would also be remiss if I did not stand and say we need free WiFi in all these shelters. Because the children are behind in their schoolwork. Parents can't even apply for jobs or for the apartments. Everybody wants an email address, and we need a free WiFi. You can't even apply for food stamps with you because of the sickness. Nobody wants to come in their office. Everything is on the internet. So, we need free Wi Fi for everybody. We want free WiFi for everybody forever. So that we can stay in touch, who knows how long the sickness will be going on and the close down. But at the same time, we still have to put food on the table and a roof over our head. Because housing is a human right. And we all deserve that dignity. We need to convert these hotels into permanent living spaces. They're not coming back to business without tourism. There are a lot of things we know what to do. And I can tell him you don't know what to do call me, we’ll tell you what to do.
Winsome
(1:08:45) It's about time we get a seat at the table. We need a seat at the table. We're bringing the lines, the testimony right in front of them. We are getting the stories. There are some people right now in NYCC. We have a set of people who are fasting going eight days now. They call it the excluded workers they are undocumented. But they got an idea [unclear] number they work be it in the restaurant or they do housecleaning or whatever they do and they pay taxes, they are caregivers, babysitters, and they got nothing. They did not get the $1200, $600, $1400. And now they're on a hunger strike for their voices, they need to be taken care of. They need to be taken care of.
Ms. Flowers
Everyone needs to be taken care of. Everyone needs housing: food to eat and a roof over their head with justice and dignity.
Winsome
Liberty for all of us.
Nico
So, in closing the show, we have some work to do. Thank you so much, once again, Winsome and Flowers for joining us today and providing us with such so much rich insight.
Ms. Flowers
Winsome has a famous song. (The two sing) Oh, the rent is too damn high.
Nico
The best closing music on any project that I've ever worked on YouTube. I'm so honored today.
Winsome
The fight continues
Nico
So in closing the show, be sure to donate to Housing Justice for All, housingjusticeforall.org. I know that they need some money raised rather quickly as you can commit to right now. And I will give you a little bit of a moment to log in and get that going. And then be sure to tell your state reps to tax the rich and house the homeless, there is a form already made on housingjusticeforall.org on the take action tab as well. And of course, this show isn't possible without donations from people like you. All of the money that we raise mostly goes towards paying our speakers honorariums. So please take a moment to as well visit our website, Homeisahumanright.com and click the donate button and help fund our project.
Winsome
We fight because we're right. Fight fight fight. Housing is a human right.
Ms. Flowers
And don't forget we're in this love together.